From the moment he scanned or recasted a released mask from NAG it is plain sight theft. i owned 3 copies of the 98 proto and this mask is no way near the 98 proto or the N.O. Shat i currently own.
So your standing up for that guy?
Really I just think it’s a complicated topic. It’s a retool of a 3D scan of an artist’s version of a retool of a 75 Kirk. So it’s already pretty far from the original thing. I will say the Holm guy did a very good job adding in details and making the head shape much less round, but otherwise it’s still a stolen retool. At least he’s being honest about it, I guess.
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As someone who 3D models and is currently working on a Castle Stretch derived from a Kirk scan , this situation is definitely more complicated than I think some people would like for it to be .
On one hand , the 98 proto is , by all accounts , essentially just a recasted 75 Kirk , albeit with some retooling and enlarging . However , it did still require some work to be done on it in order to become the finished sculpt .
My personal opinion is that scanning/recasting can be used ethically , but this situation isn’t exactly an example of that . What Holm_737 is essentially doing is taking a recast , scanning it (which does inevitably lose detail) , and then re-adding that detail (along with the details that were lost in the initial recast) . Essentially turning a Gen2 casting of a 75 Kirk into a Gen 3 recast , and then back into a Gen 1 .
I personally believe that scanning (and recasting in general) can be used ethically , as long as the finished product is noticeably different from the source . And by “noticeably different” I mean something like turning a 75 Kirk recast into an H4 , or a Stretch mask . Something that , if you didn’t know it had origins tracing back to a pre-existing sculpt , could be seen as its own thing . Because , in that situation , the initial scan/recast is mostly being used as a jumping-off point . There’s still work needed to turn that into the finished product . I see it the same way people use the Kirk lifecast to make their sculpts . It’s a useful shortcut , but you also can’t just slap some ears and a neck onto a Lifecast and say you sculpted it from scratch . You need to turn that base into your own work , in order for you to be able to claim it as your own .
And , while I do believe that Holm_737 did need to put in the work to turn that scan into the finished product , it’s still not different enough to really be his “own work” . The scan was a 98 Proto , and the finished product was a higher definition 98 Proto .
Obviously there are also the ethical issues , both in the fact that Holm did not ask for permission to scan the 98 , along with the fact that this entire project seems to be made out of malice and revenge against NAG , rather than out of love for the hobby . It does very much seem like Holm_737 is trying to undercut NAG’s work , by recasting it without permission and selling it for significantly cheaper than what NAG offers these for . Hell , I even considered ordering a blank from him just because of how cheap he was selling them for , until I actually thought about the ramifications of it .
There is , of course , always the argument that none of us , whether we’re selling original sculpts or lineage masks , truly own anything that we’re selling . The Shape , as a character , is owned by multiple different companies , depending on the version , and isn’t public domain . From a legal standpoint , everything that isn’t from TOTS is a knockoff or counterfeit of the Shape mask . Even if someone buys a master , or sculpts their own mask , it’s not necessarily their own intellectual property , and therefore can’t really be stolen to begin with , as it never belonged to the person it was stolen from . So , from a legal perspective , what Holm_737 is doing is on the exact same level that NAG , Jimmy Falco , Nick Mulpagano , etc. are doing . From an ethical standpoint , it’s very different .
The point is , what Holm_737 is doing isn’t technically against any rules , or at least isn’t breaking any more rules than the more well-known mask makers out there . The why and how he’s doing it is what makes it different , at least to me .
At the end of the day , the 98 Proto is the same as the OCMC , and the OCMC is the same as the 98 Proto . They’re both recasts of a 75 Kirk , except one was done with about as much permission as you could reasonably get (considering Don Post Studios stopped being a thing) , and one was done without any permission , and was done specifically to try and take sales and money from the source out of petty revenge .
What Kirk was scanned for you?
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I scanned both a (rather poor) Kirk Lifecast , along with my DP99 that I got a few months ago . The Lifecast I’m currently trying to rework into a Kirk sculpt , while the DP99 acted as a base for the Castle Stretch mask I’m also working on . Although , in all honesty , I would’ve rather used a regular (proper) Lifecast instead , as it probably would’ve required less work . I ended up re-sculpting almost everything on it , both due to the re-shaping required to turn it into the Castle Stretch , along with the fact that the scan itself wasn’t very good to begin with . It acted more as a base to get the general shaping of the mask that I could then manipulate and re-build into the (current) final product .
Either way , the current sculpt doesn’t resemble the original scan in any way (aside from both of them being Myers masks) , which I feel should be the case for anyone who does the same as me . I wouldn’t feel comfortable just scanning and refining someone else’s work , especially if I was intending on producing and selling it myself .
Fortunately , I did recently become aware of a 3D scan of the proper Kirk Lifecast that I eventually plan on purchasing and using instead of having to scan other pre-existing masks (or having to deal with the poor lifecast I have now) .
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You have an original DP99? Do you have a photo of it?
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It’s a Darren Perks DP99 that was done up by MDF back in 2020 . I purchased it off of eBay late last year .
I wish I was lucky enough to own an original DP99 lol
Ah. It seems that pretty much nobody owns an original.
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Yeah they seem to be just as rare as a 75 Kirk at this point .
Honestly coming back to this , and seeing what specifically Holm_737 said about the process of producing the OCMC , it seems more like he scanned the 98 Proto and used it as a digital reference for producing his own sculpt , based on him saying “Actually , the initial scanned 3D model was never the sculpt base , just a study reference” .
Which , if that is the case , does make the mask itself slightly more ethical , as it’s not technically a recast , but merely used the 98 Proto as reference . It’s still ethically questionable , but definitely more ethical than most people initially assumed . That is , however , assuming that I’m interpreting that correctly .
I doubt he would’ve lied about it though . I mean , he already admitted to scanning the 98 Proto , and even shows the scanned model in that (now deleted) post . So I don’t see a reason for him to be transparent about all of that , and then suddenly lie about whether or not the scan actually served as a “physical” base rather than a reference point .
I believe , based on his own words , that his initial sculpt (the XL sculpt) was the 3D scan with the re-sculpted eyes and head . Then , unhappy with that result , he used the scan (unaltered or the XL version) as reference to sculpt the current LG/OG sculpt .
Once again , could be completely wrong on that , but it’s my reading based on how he worded everything .
I am not sure why this hobby is full of people who pretend they dont know what is right or wrong. Any recasting, copying or replicating someone else’s released mask is dead wrong. This is not to defend any maker but just logic . If someone finds a rare mask , like NAG and Todd brought the 98 proto in the hobby it is very wrong to get copied , it is like the linage h4 Nathan produced can be copied , and every h6 can be copied and everything can be copied. Whoever released something that Trancas owns the rights it is between them and Trancas, none of our business , and it’s not an excuse to start stealing from everything it moves. This hobby going downhill the way people acting these days. Just my 2 cents…
Nikos has copied the original KH/DW and sells them, yet I’ve not seen anyone talk about it too, here’s the pics.
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Sorry but what that has to do with this thread ? Because NAG sculpted a replica of the KHDW mask everyone can mold,steal or scan any indy released mask that comes from a movie master or an actual 75 kirk without owning any of those pieces ? Plus i’m nor sure but Mr Hertlein might gave the green light to him , who knows. I remember another mask made from a retool of the KHDW mask by someone named Andy if not mistaken. With the green light given.
Key: “NAG SCULPTED.” It is not a literal stolen version of the KH/DW. It’s the same as “NAG SCULPTED” a replica of the Don Post Kirk, the 75k (and others). Is that stealing? No, it’s not the original mask and was not a direct recast of an original mask. Lineage, sure. But not like the Kirkus is.
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That is precisely what I’m trying to say . I’m saying that it is entirely possible that , based on Holm_737’s direct words , that his Kirk sculpt started as a direct recast of the 98 Proto , but then that direct scan was scrapped in favor of a ground-up digital sculpt using the original as reference , not unlike what Nikos did with the KH/DW (minus the initial recasting) .
Now obviously it was still done without permission from Nikos , and I’m not going to even attempt to defend Holm’s intentions behind the OCMC (with it being made partially out of revenge against NAG) , but I do feel that the distinction has to be made in order for us to have a proper conversation about this . To try and paint this simply as one person 3D scanning and selling direct copies off of another artist’s work and leave it at that would be disingenuous , in my opinion , as that’s not necessarily what this situation is .
And , at the end of the day , and now this is simply my view on things , people still buy unauthorized recasts even today . People still buy CGP masks , even if Terry Lambert isn’t the one selling them anymore . Other artists still agree to finish them , even though it’s been well documented that the CGP Warlock was a recast of a Nightowl sculpt (that also originated from an original Kirk , funnily enough .) And that’s not me trying to say “well recasting isn’t all that bad since nobody saw an issue with that” because I know people very much had issues and still do with Terry . But it’s just curious to me how , after a few years , it seems like people just stop caring . Even some of the bigger names in this hobby , still occasionally finish CGP masks . So like , if we’re gonna not support the creation and production of one recasted mask , why not apply that same thought process to the other , more popular masks ? Even if Terry isn’t receiving money for the Warlock anymore , someone still is . And that person is profiting off of a recast of Justin Mabry’s work .
Either way , I don’t believe that Holm_737’s produced Kirk sculpt was a direct 3D scan of NAG’s 98 Proto , but was merely sculpted digitally using the 98 Proto as reference , albeit all without Nikos’s consent .
“based on Holm_737’s direct words , that his Kirk sculpt started as a direct recast of the 98 Proto” The thing here is that Holm claimed that he can mold and steal anything that exists out there , and it is clearly what he is doing, he stole funworld, ToTs ,SSN and whoever he can , his name to be mentioned in a possitive way it is very suspicious and odd . He is obviously a thief . About his kirk mask it is obvious that it’s not as good as the 98 proto. IMO nobody wants to get counterfeit products , except if this is the only thing he can afford to buy . The last and most important thing is that a recast or a scan of something had never been as good as the original. Even a NAG 98 proto i really think it is not as good as an original 98 proto. About Terry Lambert it’s a different issue entirely .
I’m not going to defend his actual history & intentions with 3D scanning and recasting other artists’ works . I disagree on that part , and I agree that he has no right to recast or scan any of it . I’m merely stating that , in this very specific situation , assuming that I read his words correctly , and assuming he’s not lying , he technically isn’t producing masks that are directly descended from NAG’s 98 Proto . We can criticize him for all of the questionable things he’s done , but I think that the right thing to do would be to make sure that we’re criticizing things that he is actually guilty of .
He may have recasted a lot of other things , either traditionally or digitally , and I have no intention on attempting to excuse any of that . But there is some amount of evidence that this particular instance is not a “traditional” case of him scanning & reselling another artist’s work . There is , instead , evidence pointing towards him having used a digital scan of another artist’s work as reference for sculpting and producing his own work . And , I won’t comment on the quality of it . As stated before in this thread , Holm does seem to have some experience in digital sculpting , considering the amount of detail he did bring into his Kirk sculpt .
And , all things considered , I would say that however much work Holm put into that sculpt is infinitely more work than however much work Terry Lambert put into masks like the CGP Warlock . So , at least in my mind , Holm’s OCMC is more of an original sculpt than the Warlock . Not to say that either mask is “original” , as both derive from another artist’s Kirk-based sculpt .
I only bring the Warlock & Terry Lambert up to compare how that mask and artist were treated compared to Holm & the OCMC , as they are both functionally the same situation (although , as I stated previously , I believe the OCMC required more work from Holm than the Warlock did from Lambert) . People still look upon the Warlock as an amazing mask , and other , more experienced artists like James Carter still agree to refinish those masks despite the history behind both them and their creator .
I wont defend Holm’s actions , nor his intentions behind replicating the original Kirk . But I do believe that he should be treated as fairly as possible given the circumstances . And I believe that we as a community either should have been more harsh on CGP , or more lenient with Holm , as they both seem to get very different treatments despite having been guilty of the same thing .
I think, he tried to make the 98 proto mask scan , even better and because he lacks of any 3d sculpting ability he just ruined it, that is what i can see . There are amazing 3d sculptors out there that making accurate work , holm has zero ability of 3d sculpting . If he had ability he would try to sculpt something in 3d in the past , the guy is only stealing… But again now days with AI out there , dont doubt that we are about to see accurate sculpts taken just from a single picture , which is unfair for 3d sculptor and traditional as well .
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I absolutely agree with AI being extremely unfortunate for both traditional & digital artists . At least digital art requires some amount of work .
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