The pesky "flesh on neck" debate.

DISCLAIMER:

I know like many things, this topic can sometimes be a sore subject for people.

Below is an email response I sent to a would-be customer a couple of months ago. All of the information below is based on simply trying to weigh the available (to me) evidence and conjecture on this subject as best as I can, then trying to come to the most logical conclusions based on all of it. I am not married to the conclusions that I have come to, and I am especially not interested in trying to win an argument, or even trying to persuade anyone else to these conclusions. I am just trying to make the most complete and accurate conclusions possible.

With all that said, I invite anyone to carefully read my “argument”, for lack of a better term, consider the evidence, and if you can see any glaring error to my logic, or know something I don’t, please show me, with a careful argument of your own, especially if you have solid evidence to back your argument.

I’m not starting the thread for the purpose of throwing out opinions, or calling anyone wrong (except perhaps myself, if I am truly corrected). I’m sure that I will repeat this sentiment in later in this post, more than once.

I am all for free speech and expression, all that I ask is please be civil. With all that said, please enjoy:

Ok, so on the subject of exposed flesh on the neck of the hero. There is a decent argument to be made for the exposed flesh being the case. There are numerous images appearing to show what can be interpreted as obviously visible flesh tone, and a lot of popular sentiment amongst many fans, as well as artists who have helped to promote and popularize the look.

So, let me start out by saying that I don’t have a specific dog in the fight on this. My only assertion is toward what is supported by the most logical conclusion based on the available information.

Now, with that being said, I also don’t look at this as an either or scenario. It’s not that the neck is flat white, or exposed flesh, rather, the neck has been spray painted white with enough transparency to allow the flesh to be visible under certain conditions, and not visible under others. It’s like a transparent haloing effect. This explains why the flesh pattern on the neck always seems to be changing.

You can view one example of this in the image “closet scene neck”. All of these images are from the same time, and likely even the same day of shooting. The mask would have been in the same condition in all of these shots. You can see that the degree of perceived flesh tone varies wildly based on the lighting conditions, seeming to disappear entirely when in direct lighting. The one thing that hurts my case in these images, is that my examples are in black and white. Unfortunately, the vast majority of behind the scenes images that are available are in black and white.
closet scene neck.jpg
The next set of images, “color neck collage” are from H1, H2, and F13 V. In the H1 wrap party, you can see a significant amount of white on the neck of the three masks. Unfortunately, with Nick’s chin being tucked, it isn’t easy to discern shadow from what could be interpreted as exposed flesh. However, on John’s mask in particular, you can see that the front of the neck is very clearly white. One thing that could be called into question is how much the flash from the camera could be washing out the masks, however look at how clear and obvious everyone’s skin tone appears in this photo. If any Kirk skin tone were exposed on any of the necks, it would likely also be easy to spot. Above Tommy in the back is a bts image of Dick in the “Blood Tears” stunt mask. The same one that Tommy is wearing below. As you can see here, the neck is most clearly white with subtle hints of flesh showing through, aided by shadow and weathering. Beneath the hero, are images taken during the shoot of F13 V. In the image with Dick standing across from Tom Morga. Like the H1 wrap party, there is glaring flash used in the photo, however look at the tan skin of the Jason hood as well as the yellowed cream color of the 3,4,5 Jason mask. Compare this to the part of the neck that is visible on the hero above the collar. Again, you get that faint hint of flesh beneath the transparent white, but it is certainly not exposed. Lastly is the image of the Myers and Jason hero masks side by side. This image is often used as an example for the argument of exposed flesh on the neck, however, this is taken at the same shoot as the image above it. If the exposure of the image is raised, You can see most of that seemingly heavy flesh disappear. And, again, notice the prominent flesh tone on the Jason hood, the yellowed hockey mask, and the deep red blood.
color neck collage.jpg
Many of the examples in this second collage are highly dependent on one’s belief that TLW in fact painted all of the masks for the production of H1, and used the same method for all three of the known masks. To be clear, I believe that he did. The reason that I do is because of how often I have observed his memories of the methods of production and details of the shoot have checked out. For example, his insistence on the color of the coveralls not long before the exact make was discovered. Also, his recent specification of the type of spray paint that he used to paint the original masks. I tested the epoxy based spray paint myself, with a typical enamel based white as a control. Somewhere after the 40 day mark, the enamel began to crack when moving or stretching the rubber, meanwhile the epoxy remains flexible to this day. (In relation, the opposite theory, that Don Post studios made the Hero mask; the stories of the employees of Don Post are highly questionable at best in relation to this subject, which is a whole other can of worms)

So all that to say, I mainly trust TLM’s conjecture on the subject, and another thing that he insists upon is total coverage with the white paint. Now, as stated before, that does not mean that the coverage on the neck is as opaque as what’s on the face, and that the flesh does not show through under the correct conditions. I believe it does.

It’s just that with difficult to decipher images that do not provide absolutely definitive proof one way or the other, I have to use the word of those who worked on and with the masks as a deciding factor. As far as I know, those who champion the notion of exposed flesh on the neck of the hero had no involvement with the mask or production of H1 or H2, while those who have had direct involvement have been consistent in claiming the mask was completely painted white, again, as far as I am aware.

This leads me then to say that I believe Dick Warlock when he says that he never had the mask repainted. Many of those that discount his statements, to be blunt, for all intents and purposes have claimed that he is basically either incompetent, and can’t remember, or that he is lying. So, If Warlock actually went through the trouble of having the mask repainted, it seems more than reasonable that he would remember something like that. Especially considering his enthusiasm for his prior career, his role as Myers, and his enjoyment of having and wearing various Myers masks. His stories and recollections seem more than lucid enough to add credibility to his ability to recall. So, is he Lying? Which would then beg the question; why would he lie about it? What need would he have to hide information like that? I read somewhere sometime ago, that perhaps he lied about having the mask repainted so as to avoid having the mask depreciate in value when he was looking to sell. I find a lot of holes in this thinking.

For starters, the mask itself would be extremely difficult to depreciate in value, even if it were in horrendous condition. It’s a one of a kind piece that cannot be replaced, and it’s value is related to it’s history more so than it’s condition. Even in ruin, it would still have significant value to collectors, or if it were repainted for that matter. Also, on that line of thinking, the person who purchased the mask did so discovering in person that it was in a significant state of decay, and was unaffected by the condition, still paying a rather significant sum for the time.

Second, why go through the trouble of repainting something that you are not going to preserve or repair? Warlock left the mask in an Elvis tin in his basement. Up until the time he sold the mask, he treated it like it was any casual seasonal Halloween mask. It was there to be used and enjoyed, rather than preserved or displayed. He likely had no concept of the long term maintenance of a latex rubber mask, at least not until the internet became a significant factor in communication, likely around the time he was looking to sell the mask. If the thinking in regards to having the mask painted is true, then he would have had to have had it done by no later than 1996. What is the likelihood he would have come across online information regarding mask collecting, maintenance, or repair? Not to mention, the very niche world of mask restoration for hire. I mean, wearing the mask at conventions, keeping it stored in his basement in a humid environment, allowing the mask to clearly rot in front of him over the course of at least seven years without so much as seemingly a mild concern? Does this seem like someone concerned with the esthetics or resale value of the mask? Considering all this, does it seem like DW would have paid out to get the mask repainted? What would have been the reason to do so, based on his subsequent treatment of the mask? (In a related note, Dick’s original KH/DW has rotted quite significantly since he owned it. Seemingly no measures had been taken to preserve the mask as he would wear it regularly on Halloween for long periods of time, as well as conventions and photoshoots. This treatment of the KH would be completely in line with my theories on his treatment of the hero.)

Thirdly, If the mask were indeed repainted, was it just the neck, or was it the whole thing? And if the whole mask was indeed repainted, how did the supposed repainter manage to keep the transparency of the original application (with the subtle shades of flesh barely showing through) after painting over the original paint without the white going completely opaque? To see this subtle transparency, look at the second photo from the current owner of the hero. It’s a profile shot that shows quite a bit of faint flesh tones in various places. So, if the person who repainted the mask only did the neck, then they did a magnificent job seamlessly touching up the missing paint, which would definitely be possible, but I would argue that this would require a certain level of skill. And, if this person were an fx or mask artist, I doubt they would have allowed the mask to remain in a rotting state without some attempt at intervening. And, again, does all of this trouble really seem plausible knowing the way in which DW handled the mask? I’ve also included a collage image of the Hero at the 1996 convention “hero mask 1996”. The colors of the neck in these photos show a variety of different appearances of white, grime, and even some that could be argued look like fleshtone, which is also funny because, due to degradation there are actually two new areas of exposed fleshtone at this time.
hero mask 1996.jpg
So, if him getting the mask repainted doesn’t logically add up, then it would be concluded that the 96 paintjob on the Hero is one and the same as it was when it was applied in 78. If my argument and logic actually adds up, then the neck was always clearly white whenever it was out of heavy shadows, that other than dirt and rot the original paint remains on it to this day in the very same application as the beginning. What other argument could then be weighed against it always being the same paint all along? Seriously, unless TLW and DW were in on a two man conspiracy to lie, what would have caused the paint to be reapplied, not to mention worn away? Which leads me to my next question.

Could the spray paint have been removed unintentionally from casually handling the mask? Again, this is contingent on TLW being accurate in his account of what he used to paint the hero. The type of spray paint, krylon appliance white epoxy spray paint, is a product meant to be applied over commonly used household appliances that would be handled on a daily basis. It is designed to last on appliances for a twenty year duration, again, with regular handling and wear. That being said, if the spray paint was applied correctly, and allowed ten minutes to dry, I would think that this type of spray paint would have been very difficult to remove. I think removing this spray paint intentionally from a latex mask would prove difficult. And, yes, I did test this out on a test mask that I spray painted with this paint. Attempting to remove this paint by hand would result in a blister with little to no success of paint removal. If all of this information is true, then there was never any rubbing or flaking away of the white paint on the Hero. With the information on TLW’s application methods easily available online, one could very easily test this out themself.

And to bring this pedantic wreck to a close, I have a couple of images of a mask that I painted under different lighting. This is the same application, on the same day. You can see hints of flesh on both images, in different places on the neck at different intensities. This is not as stark as what appears on the hero on screen, but I am not using dramatic low key light set ups to photograph the mask either.
same mask different light.jpg
So, all that being said, the intention of my paint ups are to have a subtly weathered white, with faint hints of flesh that will show under the right conditions. Naturally, this fleshtone will not be obvious under all types of lighting, but if it were filmed in a manner similar to the hero, that fleshtone would stand out.

So, that is what I have concluded about the hero mask’s paint scheme based on the evidence, along with my ability to logically deduce that information. I’m not saying that I am right, or that there are not potential flaws in my reasoning, and I am not wed to the conclusions I have reached either. If there is some amount of evidence that disproves my findings, I would be extremely interested in seeing it.

1 Like

can’t argue with that

Fascinating subject [emoji1303]

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

You put a lot of thought into this. Heck of a thread. :astonished:

This is like one of the only photos where the flesh is clear as day.
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That image has been colourized and edited. It’s not the original.

Yea that’s true but in the movie it still looks like that I just couldn’t find a movie shot on google

U know what I posted h2 mask when this is an h1 mask so my comment really doesn’t apply to this arguement lol sorry guys

But I do have one thing to add, they said they sprayed the mask with other stuff other than paint to dim the shine for the camera shots, do u think maybe that mixing of chemicals could have caused the white paint to weaken or change a bit??

if I’m correct they just sprayed it with a matte finish to knock the shine back, i don’t think it’d change the epoxy drastically

How dare you. Scum of the earth! :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

:joy::joy::joy::joy::joy:

I applaud your detailed write up on this subject, backed up factual information is way better than dramatic theory’s any day.

My proto has a lot of flesh showing but when brightened and black and white filter goes on it hard to tell.
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As Colinslippers’ post above illustrates, black and white photos are very deceptive resources to rely on because of the very science of light and b&w photography. The images can be processed (both traditionally and digitally) to emphasize or de-emphasize certain colors. Red is often, but not always, seen in B&W as nearly as dark as black and light blue can be invisible, for example, but can be processed to look differently. Photoshop makes edits and alterations very easy today, but images were already subject to decisions made in the darkroom. So for the same reasons that photos can’t definitively define the color of the original coveralls, they are also not totally conclusive in this debate as well. Also, even though a lot of time had passed and the mask certainly changed, since the H1 and H2 heroes are the same mask, I don’t think referring to H2 photos or video that may have better views should be discounted. White will yellow with age, but aging wouldn’t cause the pink clearly visible in H2 unless it was already there or white paint was worn off by handling, IMO. We will never know definitively, it’s yet another debate that I believe helps keep us all intrigued in the character and film 43 years later.

Anyone ever notice in this picture where the paint stops on the neck looks very different, then in the photos of it from 78/81.
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Hey guys just want to ask and add a few words here. Ok first ??? We all think and are come to some terms that the hero h1 mask paint wore off a bit to neck and a bit of the nose etc,now just want to ask your guys opinion on what tlw says in the video with Sean Clark. He goes when painting the mask that’s fair game to what Sean and his crew did to the mask. Now what does this exactly mean. Did they weather the mask and then was filmed and some pics we see the mask a lil more bare in the look. Who knows??? So I ask what u guys think of that !!and the h2 mask looks like the hair is more on the orange side in some pics. And definitely more weathering going on. Thoughts. And final is that there were 3 masks as we know. Now in the pics if I’m not mistaken. The needle hole isn’t in all those pics. If u look at the mask with Jason the looks to be no needle hole. So I think the 3 mask were weathered different personally. And that’s why there is so much different thoughts. Please correct me if I’m wrong. Now that being pointed out. Dont forget other mask went missing. Is this even the hero mask??? That’s why my good buddy Sean says the holy grail is to know where the the 3 mask went or is. Thoughts. Hope this makes sense. Lol

I believe they added a little blood on the mask during H1 after being stab, the needle hole wasn’t really noticeable that’s why they did that. It was only years later as the mask started to age, it because noticeable again. Lighting will change the color of the hair, it’s the same mask. As far as weathering goes i think it happen from the handling of the mask.

What u think of this. I think the ears are different. Hero mask ear looks angled back. And dicks mask looks lil more rounded and more up right. Thoughts.
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I truly believe that hero mask went missing. These 2 mask that remain behind are the stunts.someone on that team knew the screen used hero was the keeper. Lol just my thoughts?? I could be wrong. That’s my own mystery lol.