***Halloween Kills & Halloween Ends Discussion***

I have to agree with this man. The Slasher genre as a whole has mostly featured female protagonists, with a few exceptions now and then. If that’s what we are calling feminist, then Slasher films were feminist before feminists were a thing.

Texas Chainsaw Massacre
A Nightmare on Elm St
Halloween
Friday the 13th
Scream…

All featured female protagonists, and mostly dumb men, with the exception of a Loomis or a Tommy Jarvis. Some with multiple female protagonists in the case of Nightmare and Scream. Hell, Scream was pretty heavy on the girl power, and I still never thought it felt feminist.

This is not a new thing, it’s just that in these current times, any sign of things like that get written off as feminist.

I’ve never felt that was the case in the 80’s or 90’s slashers, and this latest Halloween film is no different.

Halloween 2018 has it’s share of problems, and it’s not a perfect film what so ever, but I never left watching it feeling like it was part of the feminist movement. It felt like a typical slasher, which by the way, was one of the problems I had with it. It was just your typical slasher. A good slasher, but so many missed opportunities to make it a great Halloween film.

All just my opinion of course, so please don’t crucify me for it. :sunglasses:

I hope there are a few more photo leaks soon. I love seeing stuff like that and trying to work out the story in my head

Found this photo on Facebook. Think it’s legit? Supposed to be the HMH for Halloween Kills.
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I’m well aware that Halloween and many other slashers have strong female leads. I have zero problems with this; hell, I grew up with Leia, Sarah Connor, Ellen Ripley, and of course, Laurie Strode. My issue was that Laurie seemed less a survivor in H40 than she did in H20. Instead of moving on from her trauma, she lets it ruin her life and becomes a hermit who is constantly passive, waiting for another attack. Instead, I’d have preferred to see Laurie as a psychiatrist herself, working with victims of violent crime like herself and Tommy and Lindsay. She’s become Loomis in that she wants Michael to never be released, but more importantly, she’s helping other people instead of becoming a lone survivalist. That’s not a strong protagonist of any kind, IMO. I think Laurie deserved better than that. She was intelligent, resourceful, brave, and tough in Halloween. That should have been how she remained in the 40 years that followed.

Also, notice that all men in H40 are either inept and useless (Laurie’s son in law, the sheriff, the deputies) or evil, untrustworthy, or insane (Michael, the boyfriend and his friend, Sartain). That’s terrible characterization done to make a social commentary that isn’t needed since Laurie was already a strong female protagonist. Making the men in the movie failures and losers makes her own achievements less impressive, not more. Look at The Last Jedi for a similar approach.


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List of competent men in Halloween movies…
-Loomis
-The dentist in H2 played by the deputy from Jaws (makes a semi-positive ID of a body)
-The hospital janitor from H5 that found Jamie terrified in the basement.
-Tommy Doyle (H6)

That’s… that’s pretty much it. The rest are abusers, losers, drunks, idiots, etc… If you’re looking for competency from men in this franchise, you’re a fan of the wrong franchise. Frankly, I think you’re just reading into things that aren’t there.

Sarah Connor’s arch from T1-T2 is what Laurie should have been from H1-H40, would have been way more interesting of a climax then what we got. I digress though.

I’m not a fan of the franchise, I’m a fan of the first film. Men and women are equally strong in that film (and in good storytelling in general) and there’s no attempt to degrade one to raise up the other. Brackett is competent, by the way; he had every reason not to think Loomis wasn’t overreacting at that point.

Contrast that with the last film and the various statements on the issue from those involved. All men in the film are incompetent or ineffectual or evil or crazy. Frankly, I think you’re overlooking things you wish weren’t there.


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Michael is competent :slight_smile:


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Hawkins and Aaron were pretty normal. And believe me, I’m the first person to call out political bullshit in movies, and I didn’t pick up on anything political in H40. Unless you count JLC interviews…

I understand what your saying. It just never came off like that to me. The dumb men, evil men, idiot men, are very prominent in the slasher genre. It was nothing new in this latest one.

And that’s right, I almost forgot that your a fan of the first film, not the franchise. You seem interested in these next couple installments though, and you watched last years, so part of you must want new films in the series to succeed in some form or fashion if your watching them. That doesn’t mean your going to like them, but you must still have a shred of hope they will do something right for a change, right?

Nothing wrong with liking what you like. I just didn’t see any feminism in the film. It just played like the typical slasher with the typical character types. It was the quintessential slasher tropes. As for a Loomis character, they knew they couldn’t replace Loomis, so the next best thing is Laurie sort of taking up that position.

The filmmakers knew the fans would scoff at Sartain being the new Loomis, and that’s why Laurie says the line. Saying exactly what fans were thinking. So they threw a curve ball with Sartain to change it up. Nothing about any of it came off as feminist to me.

But again, that’s just me. I am a fan of the franchise, of all horror, and I saw nothing that was any different than how slasher films have played for the last 40 years. Which is part of why it was just an OK film for me, it was a typical slasher. Not a whole lot of risk was taken.

But now with that out of the way, let’s see what they do with these next two films now that the handcuffs are off from having to reintroduce this world to new movie goers, and playing up to the old fans of the franchise. Now that thats out of the way, they are free to do things differently and make it their own. Let’s just see how it plays out. I’m interested.

Just for the record I respect your opinions man, I hope you understand I’m just having a healthy debate, not trying to stir the pot at all.

Your absolutely right about that. If you listen to JLC doing interviews, she really plays things up to more than what they are. Then you see the movie and none of it comes off like that. It’s another reason why I take what she is saying about these next films with a tiny grain of salt.

She really plays things up to her views and image. But really, it’s just a slasher movie, lol. I still love her though! She’s something else.

Lol… yeah it was so funny in that one interview where she started saying “hallowomen” and the two other actresses were like, oh… yeah… hallo women… yeah … lol

I really fail to understand the vehement dislike for H’18 honestly. It’s one of the most well shot and well acted slasher films we’ve ever gotten if you ask me. Even the nitpicky stuff doesn’t outweigh the positives for me.

Anyways, Kyle Richards is back in Wilmington. Main cast begins shooting the hospital scenes tomorrow. JLC is apparently going to be flying down late this week.

I like H18. It’s one of the better installments in the series and will be in my rotation of Halloween films each year. I’ve actually watched it a few times over this past Summer just to really take it in for what it is.

I still have issues with certain things and choices, but the positives outweigh the negatives for me easily. I just feel like there were some opportunities there that they missed the boat on. A great slasher film, a good Halloween movie. Could of been a great Halloween movie had they hit the mark on some of the shortcomings. All in all, one of my favorites in the franchise.

I don’t think I’ve updated my ranking of the films in the series, but an updated ranking for me, would look like this:

H1
H2
H4
H2018
H3
H6
H5
RZH1
H20
HResurrection
RZH2

So it’s pretty high up on my list.
And yes, H5 is above H20. Sound and atmosphere mean a lot to me in a film, and while H20 was a solid film, the setting and the soundtrack kill the mood for me. California with reused Scream music, just does not feel like a Halloween film. Those things matter to me for the overall storytelling.

You will note the ones at the bottom of my list have the least going for them when it comes to Halloween sound design. H20, Resurrection and RZH2, all make little to no use of the core Halloween sounds and music. An opening title or end credits with the main theme being the only sign of Halloween music. That’s just something that really takes me out of those films.

I appreciate your respect and have always enjoyed our discussions because you aren’t dismissive of ideas that aren’t your own.

Here’s a question I have for you and anyone else who wants to answer: we’ve all seen the sequels and perhaps the remake. I appreciate and admit that it’s tough to come up with something new. Looking back on what we’ve seen with Laurie, was H40 really the best that a major studio and professionals could come up with? They decide to skip other films and start over again, they manage to get JLC back, they get the best mask we’ve seen since the original, and even Carpenter wants to be involved. This was the best that they could manage? Laurie Strode never grew up and became an alarmist/survivalist victim who spent 40 years turning her house into a trap to one day capture and kill Michael? She put all other things aside, including responsibilities to her family, for this? I get that the take they wanted was “haunted” and “damaged,” but that just doesn’t ring true when looking at Laurie in the original film. Here’s a girl who never gave up keeping the two kids in her care safe from a madman who had killed her friends and was hellbent on killing her. She was tough as nails and didn’t give up after seeing her friends murdered and horribly displayed, after being slashed and falling from a landing, after stabbing Michael three times and struggling with him as he tried to choke her to death. The best they could come up with is: “Yeah, she never moved past that night and spent 40 years haunted by the experience, waiting for a rematch.” Let’s look at Sarah Connor: she’s a bit of a damsel in distress in the first film but we know from Reese that she’s going to grow into a badass leader herself, a glimpse of which we see in the first film and then fully revealed in T2. I don’t think anyone would have wanted to see Sarah isolate herself in a compound and build traps in case another Terminator showed up. She was active and just as important, outward.

I suspect most of us are not screenwriters (I’m a writer myself and am just beginning to dabble with scriptwriting) but I have no doubt we could all come up with something better. We saw Laurie change her name and move away in H20, which makes more sense given that H2 is in that continuity. I’d have preferred she was more active, though I liked that she had a career that gave her purpose and helped other people. It was a brilliant idea to make Laurie a teacher/headmistress, as she’s great with kids and seems to be a natural educator. That’s all there in that first movie. So if we can’t do that again, let’s at least agree we need to make sure Laurie is active. She’s also, like H20 and H40 Laurie, concerned that Myers might return and hurt others. The most logical choice for her would be not to have children who would then be in danger should that happen. She also owes her life to Sam Loomis. It makes perfect sense that she went to him for therapy after her ordeal. It’s not a huge leap that she would become inspired to help victims of violent crime like Loomis helped her. Already, we’ve got a Laurie who has no children and who is active, driven to help other people who suffer like she did. That’s a far more interesting character than the haggard recluse who spent four decades on the defense.

As for Michael, let’s again look at the first film, especially since we’re skipping all other sequels. As far as we known in that movie, Michael is a normal six-year old kid. Something happens (we don’t need to explore that, which was Zombie’s mistake) to turn him into a killer. Loomis says he sits “staring at a wall, not seeing the wall, looking past the wall, waiting for some secret, silent alarm to trigger him off.” Carpenter always said Michael was pure evil, supernatural yet human, a force of nature, the Boogeyman. There’s never an answer as to why he becomes what he does, nor do we need one. The only reason he went after Laurie (AND Tommy, which H40 ignored) is because they crossed his path. That’s it. He fixated on them and then stalked and murdered her friends and had every intention of killing them. He’s stabbed in the neck, chest, and eye, shot six times and then falls from a second story balcony. After all that, the best thing Green came up with is that he allowed himself to be taken back into custody? If Michael is just there in the hospital under guard, the H40 Laurie makes even less sense. Hell, they even give us a scene of her at the asylum with a gun. If, however, Michael was never found after falling from the balcony, if he instead disappeared and “could be anywhere” as Carpenter has repeatedly said he intended with that ending, survivalist Laurie makes a lot more sense.

So, let’s combine these two ideas. Myers disappears and is never found. Laurie became Loomis’ protege and eventually a mental health professional like him, helping victims of violent crime. She’s dedicated her life to this work and has chosen not to have children because she has no time and because Myers was never seen again, refuses to risk her child or children’s life should he return. Meanwhile, she’s worked to help Tommy and Lindsay cope, as they were also victims of The Night He Came Home, and they’ve become like children to her. There’s the heart of your story, Laurie, Tommy, and Lindsay, the only survivors of that night. They’ve tried as best they can to move on, but in their worst nightmares they know The Shape is still out there and could return any Halloween night. He returns of course, and no one knows where he’s been. Was he out there all those years, maybe killing in other towns? That’s a horrifying mystery that’s far better than “yeah, he was locked up and did nothing for forty years until his lunatic doctor engineered his escape.” That’s not The Shape. He is self-directed, answering only that “secret, silent alarm.”

So he returns to Haddonfield, maybe to a renovated Myers house or the house on the property where it once stood. He kills the inhabitants and then waits, watching the streets. He fixates on someone like he did with Laurie, and begins stalking and killing. Laurie, Tommy, and Lindsay hear about it know it has to be The Shape. The police are disbelieving, thinking it’s a copycat. Our heroes know better and they set out to stop Myers in any way they can.

We haven’t seen any of that before and it all fits perfectly with the first film. Now, if your’e not going to do a movie that skips all the other sequels, then you don’t have to use it as your basis as much. That was always the stated vision of H40, though, yet they not only got Laurie wrong, they ignored Tommy and Lindsay and gave us characters we didn’t care for or even really like. Sure, they’re going to bring in these and other characters now, but if I can build a story that includes them faithfully and logically, why couldn’t they for the first movie? Green said in an interview that there were ninety drafts for the movie. The interviewer joked about it and he said he wasn’t exaggerating. How do you go through 90 drafts and still get it so wrong? That’s what I can’t abide. I expected that they would do a better job, that they would be far more faithful to the original and its characters after saying that’s what they were going to do.

I honestly don’t think Halloween needed any sequels, outside of Carpenter using Someone’s Watching You as the basis for a sequel with Laurie living alone in an apartment years later. Other than that, no sequel has justified its existence to me. H40 could have been the one that did justify it’s existence, but it was mostly unimaginative and failed to live up to the characters and spirit of the original film outside of names and situations. I know other people have different takes and that’s great, but I have a hard time accepting this as the best that could have been done with so many things falling into place for what could have been a modern classic.

Brackett couldn’t smell a joint when it was under his nose, and Bob was a drunken idiot (and possibly a pedophile). Loomis is the only one competant in the first movie, and in many of the sequels as well.

moving on, we now have the basic premise of Kills a released by Universal.
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2 years later? What the fuck that makes no sense? Keep in mind this screenshot going around is from Wikipedia, I can’t find confirmation anywhere else…

Two years sounds like a long time I’m not sure I believe that nor would a studio issue that statement a year before the film is due out

Well it will be two years since the last film, so it’s possible. But the fact they are about to shoot scenes at HMH, it makes no sense. Maybe it opens with the rest of the night from 2018, then moves two years later, but there is no way to know what’s going on here. I would take that info with a grain of salt until it’s on an official Universal website or official site for the film.