Well, as much as I don’t care for his business model, he wouldn’t keep going if the demand wasn’t there. Until people stop eating this up, he’ll simply continue.
Maybe we’re the idiots, Ken. You and I see him motivated by greed to exploit a community using the same buzz words and promises over and over again. It feels disingenuous, underhanded, and slimy AT BEST.
However, perhaps the folks that buy into this simply see his new product as the latest model like we do phones or cars. You know, Samsung and Apple do pretty much the same thing with their flagship phones. Very little different from year-to-year, but people will buy the new one to have those extra 100 megapixels in the latest color. Know what I mean?
They find something people will clamor over (MOAR ACCURATE 75 MASTER vs BETTER CAMERA HIGH RES MOAR STORAGE) and exploit that by offering a minimally better product model after model.
It’s nothing new.
I have a lot of respect for people like Dennis Beckstrom who came in and said he was going to make a pinnacle mask to the best of his ability, limit the run, and then dipped. No BS, no endless exploitation, just gave the hobby a stellar mask to the very best of his ability as an artist and walked away knowing he couldn’t possibly create something “more accurate”.
I have experience with these concepts while making my knife replica.
That is something I noticed is his original poll question wasn’t even followed through completely. To me he made it sound like he found an actual 75 Kirk master mold and was gonna start doing pulls out of that, he said this weekend so I’m sure today or tomorrow we will see just what he’s talking about for sure.
He doesn’t have a 75 Master and I don’t think he ever said he does.
You might be getting caught up in the semantics. It’s the same old stuff packaged differently.
He wants to create another Kirk. Period.
He’s packaging the concept as “recreating the 1975 Master Mold”… which is a convoluted way of saying, “I’m sculpting a Kirk.” He’s calling it a “Mother Mold” or whatever, but it’s him trying to create another Kirk and labeling it, as he always does, as a be-all end-all mask that tops anything he’s done before.
Yep. I couldn’t agree more. I’ve never owned his stuff and I won’t. It’s a personal choice that I don’t try to push on others. Supply and demand. Eliminate the demand and with it goes the supply. If other people want his stuff, cool.
At this point, I fault him less for pillaging the community of its wealth with questionable tactics and place more of that onus on the community itself for falling into that trap over and over again. At some point we have to accept the fact that folks WANT someone like him offering what he offers.
People want the latest NAG pieces. He and his endless “more accurate” masks are as much a part of what keeps the hobby going as the franchise itself at this point.
The thing is, he’s not really exploiting anything. He’s an artist, and he sells his art. I wouldn’t even say the comparison to iPhones is even fair. Apple will release certain software features that aren’t compatible to older models to force you to upgrade. NAG is just creating another piece of art and giving people more options to pick from. Nothing wrong with that, and there is absolutely no obligation for previous NAG owners to buy newer masks. It all depends on whether you like it and if you want to add it to your collection. I don’t see any exploitation.
It’s akin to any artist. I don’t think it’s fair to say musicians exploit their listeners by creating more albums. I don’t think it’s fair to say movies exploit viewers by making more sequels. Of course the goal is to sell, but there isn’t anything that is really sinister about it, unlike phones where you could make that argument as you are left with a device that is purposely no longer able to keep up with the times to pressure you. Art is subjective. If you see a new piece that you love and that alone compels you to buy, then that was down to your own subjective tastes.
If anything, I am grateful there is still one reliable place to get accurate myers masks. I feel more sad when we have great masks that only run a limited number of pulls, and you have to wait years before you’re lucky enough to see someone selling one on, only for the price to be something ridiculous in the thousands due to scarcity. I would much rather prefer if the molds were sold on to other artists so that more of them could be made reliably. The artist can still make their money by selling the licence to use the mold.
On a different note, I think it would be more interesting, and perhaps more lucrative for NAG to maybe start exploring different finishes on his masks. There’s only so many times I would buy the same sculpt. But the same sculpt with different weathering, paint job, hair? I’d definitely be interested in that!
I’m not sure if NAG is just being respectful to other artists like James Carter, as I know he sends blanks to him for finishes - but personally I’m not a fan of the huge waiting list. I’m just a consumer and want to trade my money for something I see and want. I don’t really want to wait half a decade or more to get a certain finish to a mask. I think if NAG explored this path, and tried different styles of his finishes, possibly more vintage hair and more film accurate paint jobs, I would certainly be compelled to buy a lot more of the same sculpts I already own by him.
In my opinion, the exploitation comes in the form of promises like '“more accurate”, “better than before”, etc. Exploitation, in one sense, is to leverage a situation unfairly to gain an advantage.
Knowing what the community desires (hyper-accuracy) and promising to achieve greater and greater levels of this over and over and over again, is a form of exploiting the community to sell his product.
To use your examples of musicians and filmmakers, what NAG does is not equivalent to putting out a new record or making a sequel.
How do you suppose the music world would react if a contemporary composer released a new recording of Beethoven’s 9th once or twice a year, over and over again, promising that each new recording was “more accurate” to how it would have sounded when Beethoven himself was conducting?
How do you suppose the film world would react to a filmmaker who releases a new version of Lord of the Rings twice a year claiming each version was a better representation of the book?
NAG is 100% exploiting the community. And to be clear, I’m not saying he’s some evil dude for doing it, I’m saying he does what many companies do, and quite frankly, what many other Myers artists do. Good, bad, or otherwise, that’s up to the individual to decide.
I mean, other artists do similar things for sure. Re-releases of tracks that contain more layers that were cut from the original record. Movies that are re-released with deleted scenes or director cut versions, etc. It’s all the same thing really. Halloween 2018 did the same thing by claiming to be the best Halloween film since the original. John carpenter said that himself. I didn’t personally feel like it was, but others may have, so it’s all subjective. But it definitely happens outside of what NAG does.
I’m sure you are right and I’m sure making more masks is specifically a part of his business model, no debating that. But whether he is exploiting the community I really think comes down to personal opinion. You either feel like the film companies exploit viewers by making more sequels and promising to be the best film since X, or mask makers promising the best version of their work since X, or you sit on the other side of the fence and are just happy to have gotten another film or another mask. I don’t think there is a universal truth essentially, it’s all how each person individually feels about it.
Yep. I agree. This trend is by no means exclusive to NAG. That’s the point I was trying to make when I brought up Samsung and Apple. These business trends are as old as commerce itself.
We also agree that it’s a judgment call for each individual to make whether they are good or bad.
It’s nice to have a civil conversation with someone who isn’t easily put off by topics that make them uncomfortable. I think it’s only natural to discuss these things when they are as much a part of this hobby as sharing photos of our collections. Afterall, the online forum model was initially designed to be a space for conversation first and foremost. The addition of various media came later.
Anyway, I saw your other post about your coveralls. Those are a dandy. The Navy blue is classic. CC rocks Navy blues and his photos are some of the best around here. I think some of us… …. get caught up in the hyper accuracy game a little too hard sometimes. Great coveralls!
Absolutely. It’s great to have a civil conversation, and hopefully we can continue that trend. We have a community to be proud of, especially one that has lasted this long, and we MUST protect it at all costs!
Appreciate that my friend. I’m just glad I can fit in those coveralls again as I’ve lost a substantial amount of weight. The last time I tried them on I looked like Michael Myers after he’s eaten one too many dogs So thought I’d snap some photos whilst I still can haha.
I don’t think this post was even originally pointing directly at NAG in general. I don’t think people care if he is putting out his 102nd mask. Nag has some serious talent and no one can deny that. I dont think that’s the issue at all here (at least not for me), what is an issue is artists are misleading the new guys with the names and origins of their masks describing each mask as an end all. Nag however is an artist that can put out 100 different 101% accurate masks. If any of his masks were 100% accurate and all he wanted was to create a 100% accurate Kirk/Myers than he wouldn’t have to make various different sculpts with misleading names and origins claiming the same 101% accuracy with each one.
Heres the thing If you change the ears, eyes, nose, mouth, chin, neck, eyebrows add detail back in or change the overall shape than it is no longer 100% true to the original 75 DPS sculpt. Yes, these modifications generally improve the overall look of a mask and I’m all for it, but it doesn’t help the accuracy in regards to the piece itself. All the tweaks and changes in all the Myers masks ever made were done to enhance or improve the piece to stylize it one way or another so saying it’s 100% accurate and being shady about the origins and what was modded on the newest sculpt is more than misleading.
Any artist can put out a really nice kirk based sculpts and I’m all for it, but these new guys are buying expensive masks they think is something it’s not by misleading artists, mask names and origins. A beat around the bush selling tactic that just isn’t honest. Nag for instance is one of the best in the business when it comes to Kirks/Myers that’s nothing to debate, but he really needs to learn you cant or well at least shouldn’t Use words and phrases like 100% accurate (accurate to what) The original mask itself has a million looks and all are subjective to the artist(s) and Customers who are buying them so saying something is 100% accurate when you have another 20-30 h1/h2/kirk versions from the same artist saying the same thing is not only misleading, but a down right lie.
It’s like this I’ve been talking to a lot of new school fans and collectors and almost all of them truly believe that their Masks are from real 75 kirk molds or from the movie mold. They have Incredible masks from incredible artists and I tell them “Wow that’s one of the best so and so masks ive seen so far” or something like that and They say something like “Yea it came from The actual Movie mold” or it’s a (cough) and I have to explain that as it’s a very nice mask one if not the best ive seen it’s not from a movie mold or from an original DPS 75 kirk mold or Master, but rather a highly restored version from something that came from a cast a long way down the line and refined to bring it back to it’s original look or a look from a scene the artist was shooting for. Then these new guys call me an idiot or say I don’t know what I’m talking about even though I’ve been in this hobby from day 1 (I was in this hobby before this website and longer than a lot of these new guys have even been alive. So I feel I’ve learned a couple things on my journey”
Bottom line is this. The new guys are being told they are buying one thing and getting another. The masks are all great and I’m all for a new mask from anyone at any time, but when arguments start in the community because an artist didn’t tell them the entire truth that the mask they are buying has in fact been put back in clay and refined, modified and changed over and over again is a slippery slope of deception. On the other hand using a kirk lifecast or a ground up sculpt there is no denying that that is that artists true work and the origin can easily be tracked, but when you get into 1975 kirk/Myers origin territory the artists all seem to beat around the bush with exactly how it was made and what cast was used to make it. I don’t think a customer should have to play “detective” when buying an expensive collectors piece then find out later down the line that they didn’t get exactly what they thought they were buying. Any artist can take a kirk cast and use it as a base but what generation is the cast from and what changes has actually been made.
Long story short NO you don’t have a 100% Kirk replica NO your mask is not from the 1975 Kirk mold NO your mask isn’t from the master or mother mold NO your mask is not a true unmodified 3d scan NO your mask isn’t an unaltered 2nd gen. What you do have is a really nice mask that wasn’t fully explained to you properly. Do you have a nice mask? Yes. Is Your mask awesome? Yes. Is your mask pretty damn accurate? Yes. At the end of the day a person should be sold a mask honestly and not with misleading buzzwords that confuses a new buyer. Simple as that.
…. get caught up in the hyper accuracy game a little too hard sometimes. Great coveralls!
